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how to reconcile a seeming paradox - a novice query
jaydoc


Age: 35
Zodiac:
Virgo



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 25

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If Lagnas Lord is in 3rd House, the native will equal a lion in valor, be endowed with all kinds of wealth, be honourable, will have two wives, be intelligent and happy.  Parashara Hora

If 8ths Lord is in 3rd House, the native will be devoid of fraternal happiness, be indolent and devoid of servants and strength. Parashara Hora

If 9ths Lord is in 5th House, the native will be endowed with sons and prosperity, devoted to elders, bold, and learned.

If 12ths Lord is in 5th House, the native will be bereft of sons and learning. He will spend, as well as visit shrines in order to beget a son.

In an aries ascendant, with mars in the third house, and jupiter in the fifth, how can each of these pair of statements from the greatest of all astro seers, be true at the same time...?

Someone explain please
Re: how to reconcile a seeming paradox - a novice query
Rohiniranjan


Age: 62
Zodiac:
Sagittarius



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 6373
Location: Cyber-Nation
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Dear Jay --

Good questions! They touch upon the logical part of jyotish and then some more!

Lagnesha always has the the flavour of mars, because mars rules the lagna of kalapurusha, the lagnesha of the human race as I have dared dub it in my article published in Astrological Magazine in the Feb 2007 issue (shameless plug! Sorry!!)

And you raise some of the karako bhavnashaya issues too in the same post. I am not sure if you did it knowingly or innocently!

A wise doctor friend shared with me many years ago: You see one, you do one, you teach one! She was referring to medical procedures of course, but maybe astrological techniques are not all that different either. Just that the numbers (N) would need to be higher than "1".

The beauty of jyotish is this:
That which encompasses logic and logical always sounds so elegant until unless you apply the logic to real charts! And at that point, if you are fortunate you realize that what you had considered logical so far may not have been THE logic or reality and that there is an alternative explanation -- often logical and sometimes even more logical than the first explanation that you learned but that failed in your experience! Almost like scientific discoveries!

RR




[quote="jaydoc"]If Lagnas Lord is in 3rd House, the native will equal a lion in valor, be endowed with all kinds of wealth, be honourable, will have two wives, be intelligent and happy.  Parashara Hora

If 8ths Lord is in 3rd House, the native will be devoid of fraternal happiness, be indolent and devoid of servants and strength. Parashara Hora

If 9ths Lord is in 5th House, the native will be endowed with sons and prosperity, devoted to elders, bold, and learned.

If 12ths Lord is in 5th House, the native will be bereft of sons and learning. He will spend, as well as visit shrines in order to beget a son.

In an aries ascendant, with mars in the third house, and jupiter in the fifth, how can each of these pair of statements from the greatest of all astro seers, be true at the same time...?

Someone explain please[/quote]
jaydoc


Age: 35
Zodiac:
Virgo



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 25

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recently i read a house division system which says each house always need not be 30 degrees in size on the zodiac. if tht is the case, then at least part of any chart will be wrong...? how can this be...?

             accdg to this system , in my chart lot of planets fall in the immediate succeeding house or preceding house....! throwing all assumptions into jeopardy...!
astrobhadauria


Age: 57
Zodiac:
Libra



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 601
Location: Jaipur-Mobile-+91-9414386494
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Vedic Astrology always in fixed positions,there are not any flux abilities.
re:
arian_1c


Age: 31
Zodiac:
Aries



Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 246
Location: London
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jaydoc wrote:
recently i read a house division system which says each house always need not be 30 degrees in size on the zodiac. if tht is the case, then at least part of any chart will be wrong...? how can this be...?

             accdg to this system , in my chart lot of planets fall in the immediate succeeding house or preceding house....! throwing all assumptions into jeopardy...!


you are really pointing out at some of the things that catches ur attention inadvertently until u learn to let them go....but lets hope we can get some answers here...

regards
sahil
Rohiniranjan


Age: 62
Zodiac:
Sagittarius



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 6373
Location: Cyber-Nation
Reply with quote
[quote="jaydoc"]recently i read a house division system which says each house always need not be 30 degrees in size on the zodiac. if tht is the case, then at least part of any chart will be wrong...? how can this be...?

             accdg to this system , in my chart lot of planets fall in the immediate succeeding house or preceding house....! throwing all assumptions into jeopardy...![/quote]


All students of jyotish must spend some time playing around with ephemeris and tables of ascendants and get to know certain characteristics of the way the earth interacts with the celestial players.

I am sure you must have heard/know that at the equator, the day and night is always nearly equal. As you go higher or lower in latitude (moving north or south from equator) you will find that days are nights become unequal in length even on the same day. When you reach the poles you find that you have the day for six months followed by night that lasts 6 months. At high north latitudes (60 degrees or so, Sweden, Iceland, etc) you find that during winter, the sun is visible (day) for a few hours and the rest of the 24 hrs are dark and without sun (night).

Since on a given day, sun can only be in a given degree of a sign, no matter where you are on the earth (agree?) it is obvious that the sign that sun is in is either visible for a longer period (summer) or not (winter). This discrepancy is what created the unequal house divisions to be used by tropical astrologers.

Contrary to some ill-informed opinions jyotish also uses unequal house divisions as I wrote recently here or somewhere. The Sripati house division that forms the basis of shad bala determination etc (BPHS) uses a mild form of unequal division that is also known in the tropical system as Porphyrii.

In the extreme unequal house divisions some of the signs never rise during the 24 hrs (intercepted signs) and sometimes a sign spans over more than one house!

Also -- tropical houses (and KP which uses for some reason houses as the tropical system does) start with cusps. Lagna sphuta for instance forms the beginning of the first house. In the more traditional Indian systems, unlike KP, the rising degree forms the bhava madhya or middle point of the house.

The tropical scene is described as the doorway (ascending degree is the door into the first house) while in Jyotish, the rising degree is compared to a candle which is in the middle of a room and whose light shines and illuminates the entire room. Personally, I like the latter analogy!

RR
astrobhadauria


Age: 57
Zodiac:
Libra



Joined: 25 Oct 2006
Posts: 601
Location: Jaipur-Mobile-+91-9414386494
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The best idea to make results by vedic astrology,
1.See birth stars.
2.See Gochara Stars,
3.Which star when making relation with birth star.
4.That relation is true reading about life,and future.

Ramendra
Jaipur
baba


Age: 51
Zodiac:
Sagittarius



Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 6

Reply with quote
jaydoc wrote:
recently i read a house division system which says each house always need not be 30 degrees in size on the zodiac. if tht is the case, then at least part of any chart will be wrong...? how can this be...?

             accdg to this system , in my chart lot of planets fall in the immediate succeeding house or preceding house....! throwing all assumptions into jeopardy...!


Astrology has various systems of house divisions. A house (bhav) need not coincide with a zodiac sign (Rashi ) - actually it rarely does. Only Birth at equator will give equal house divisions and even those may not be exactly the same as zodiac signs. For example, if for birth at equator lagna is 29 degrees aires and lagna is 30 degrees wide then first house (Bhav) will start at 16 degrees Taurus and extend  till 14 degrees aires!! AND planets positioned between these two points in both Aires and Taurus will fall in the first bhav!!

Never analyze a lagna chart in isolation always look at the sub divisionals like D9/D5/D10/D7 etc . OR use the KP system of house divisions OR base your predicitions on the 27 nakshatras as they are the most accurate way to analyze charts. But nakshatra based predicitions need a lot of study and practice.

God Bless
jaydoc


Age: 35
Zodiac:
Virgo



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 25

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well, it looks like one of the most fundamental tenets of astrology is not being practised rightly by most jyothishis, at least in India. Maybe this is a very important reason why jyothish has not been very accurate or helpful to many.

dear RRji, babaji, bhadauriaji and others, could anyone of you tell me a book or point me to a link tht explains the most accurate method of house division....?
vivekvshetty


Age: 48
Zodiac:
Gemini



Joined: 15 Jan 2007
Posts: 1033
Location: India
Reply with quote
jaydoc wrote:
well, it looks like one of the most fundamental tenets of astrology is not being practised rightly by most jyothishis, at least in India. Maybe this is a very important reason why jyothish has not been very accurate or helpful to many.

dear RRji, babaji, bhadauriaji and others, could anyone of you tell me a book or point me to a link tht explains the most accurate method of house division....?


Namaskaar Doc,
The Rashi's are ruled by Surya (Dwadasa Aaditya), the Nakshatras by Chandra, These divisions are uniform.
There are atleast 20 system of house divisions if not more, which will you take as acurate? Traditionally it is the Sripati system that is followed in India.
Many advocate the equal house system (cusp plus minus 15 degree) which is logical.
Stick to Rashi chart, even mastering this is enough.
The Bhavas Chalit (House systems) have to do with Aura and its influence on the individual and also other peoples Aura on him. This is far more advanced than we can learn now.

for now,
vivek
jaydoc


Age: 35
Zodiac:
Virgo



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 25

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dear vivekji, and others too...

         won't the predictions change with the house system one employs...?
     
         and what is the house division system being used in most of the astro software...? they all give the same chart for my data, so they all must have the same house system, which must be the one most commonly followed, if not the most accurate...?
Rohiniranjan


Age: 62
Zodiac:
Sagittarius



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 6373
Location: Cyber-Nation
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I have repeated my understanding of this 'house-business' many times but it seems that my words are landing like tushar-bindu landing on the heated saucepan!

The unequal housedivision is earth-bound. It is a phenomenon that is very dependent on the earth-based systems. Western astrology uses the earth-based zodiac, the seasonal zodiac in which the first point of Aries coincides with the vernal equinox, the first day of spring (northern hemisphere). This zodiac has no correspondance with the celestial ecliptic based zodiac that jyotish and other sidereal zodiac systems use! When jyotishis say mars is in scorpio, if you look up, mars would be seen streaming against the scorpio constellation! In the tropical zodiac (earth based) at that point mars would be probably in sagittarius!

The two zodiacs meet every 25000 years or so, as the earth completes one polar wobble! The last time the two zodiacs coincided was about 2000 years ago when early texts of western astrology (Tetrabiblios by Ptolemy etc) were written!

When you are using an earth-based zodiac and astrological system, you would have to take into account the earth-based unequal house division systems because they essentially define the "zodiac" you have chosen to use!

Jyotish uses the celestial constellational zodiac, each of the signs of which is a house by itself. One may quibble that they may not each be 30 degrees and so on, but the rest can simply continue to use the entire sign as a bhav and for most of us that would be all we need.

The software (jyotish ones anyway) allow you to use the whole sign as a house or the equal house division (cusp plus/minus 15 degrees defines the boundaries of a house).

Until a good body of evidence is collected, demonstrated, discussed and validated in favour of unequal houses or even equal house division in Jyotish, my simple principle is: If it ain't broke, do not fix it!

To each his own, of course ...

RR



[quote="jaydoc"]well, it looks like one of the most fundamental tenets of astrology is not being practised rightly by most jyothishis, at least in India. Maybe this is a very important reason why jyothish has not been very accurate or helpful to many.

dear RRji, babaji, bhadauriaji and others, could anyone of you tell me a book or point me to a link tht explains the most accurate method of house division....?[/quote]
Rohiniranjan


Age: 62
Zodiac:
Sagittarius



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 6373
Location: Cyber-Nation
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There are two realities: Newtonian and Quantum, as modern Physics has now recognized and validated.

The Newtonian Universe is what most scientists and rationalists know and love, because it is better understood, more predictable and works mostly like a streamlined, well designed machine.

All applied scientists (for instance engineers and doctors) love that realm because it increases certainties, reduces unwelcome surprises and reduce headaches for them as they build their bridges and mansions or treat patients.

The Quantum reality is more ephemeral, almost mystical but while it is full of uncertainties (and not all of those unpredictable -- as Heisenberg demonstrated/observed) it is also full of possibilities that expand our Newtonian Universe or Newtonian window into Total Reality!

Jyotish is something that bridges the two view portals. Its springboard is Newtonian reality, because we calculate planets and all other astronomical stuff using Newtonian principles. But once the chart is erected we begin to use this Newtonian map to delve into the Quantum reality that the HUMAN EXPERIENCE as I call it, really is! Think about that for a minute!

There is nothing in astrological 'logic' that is readily explainable based on Newtonian mindsets! And yet we keep testing astrology through Newtonian paradigms and reach nowhere or worse: wrong conclusions as to how astrology works! How karma works, how the spirit reality that astrology tunes into works! And we run into the conundrum that has intrigued and frustrated physicists for many many years: Is light a wave or particle!

To some extent medicine also presents a similar experience. The machines, the diagnostic protocols and SOPs, the precise medication and doses and all that surrounds it are to a large extent Newtonian, but given all things equal, disease, background, constitution, sometimes even genes (identical twins), the two individuals respond differently to the same disease with one showing an incredible will to live while the other giving up readily. That to me represents the Quantum glimpse that reminds us that there is a halo around the Newtonian principles -- some choose to call that halo an angel, soul, even GOD!

RR
jaydoc


Age: 35
Zodiac:
Virgo



Joined: 09 Feb 2007
Posts: 25

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dear RRji,

        Its nice to hear these words of wisdom from you, so often, and i only wish i had been fated to meet you earlier, but then you might again sort of tease me by saying, everything will happen at its own pre-ordained time.....!

        I'm sure my posts all over the WWW would have amply made you aware of my deep interest in astrology, and also my predicament regarding my career....!

        Its been very much interesting to visit these forums and others frequented by people like you. For me its my first ever fulfillment of my hope -  of meeting astrologers and Jyothishis who, while genuinely well-versed in astrology, are at the same time not too overwhelmed by it as to the extent of being blinded by all it proclaims - Newtonian minds around a quantum heart - to borrow from your analogy....!

        Now to return to the issue at hand, i understand tht until its found to be broken it need not be fixed - so i will go on discovering the nectar in the jyothish flower using the same equal division method only....!
Rohiniranjan


Age: 62
Zodiac:
Sagittarius



Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 6373
Location: Cyber-Nation
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Jay,

You have what it takes to be a good astrologer and a great doctor. You can experience the brain and heart at the same time, in other words you are a poet!

Have you noticed that most Jyotish classics (except for portions of vrihat samhita) were written in verses! It is easy to express something like astrology in prose (most writers today) but it is difficult to express the soul of astrology in metered verse! For that alone, the Sages must be adored and admired and paid serious attention to.

Early, late, right time wrong time, preordained?? Why is the quantum heart getting trapped into those Newtonian limitations?

While you wait for the career to unfold, assume the stance that the Universe is not your enemy! When a path seems blocked or more difficult than it should be, perhaps it is a signal that you are not looking for alternatives to better utilize the Newtonian time ;-)

Sometimes, the more we strain, the more difficult the passage becomes! Relaxing and letting go, on the Doctor (Upstairs) prescribed! Try it!!

RR



[quote="jaydoc"]dear RRji,

        Its nice to hear these words of wisdom from you, so often, and i only wish i had been fated to meet you earlier, but then you might again sort of tease me by saying, everything will happen at its own pre-ordained time.....!

        I'm sure my posts all over the WWW would have amply made you aware of my deep interest in astrology, and also my predicament regarding my career....!

        Its been very much interesting to visit these forums and others frequented by people like you. For me its my first ever fulfillment of my hope -  of meeting astrologers and Jyothishis who, while genuinely well-versed in astrology, are at the same time not too overwhelmed by it as to the extent of being blinded by all it proclaims - Newtonian minds around a quantum heart - to borrow from your analogy....!

        Now to return to the issue at hand, i understand tht until its found to be broken it need not be fixed - so i will go on discovering the nectar in the jyothish flower using the same equal division method only....![/quote]
how to reconcile a seeming paradox - a novice query
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