Hi Rhuto,

We have a lot of aspiring readers who may want to use the CC. I have done a tutorial and posted it a few times already.

We allknow that the Celtic Cross are daunting for beginners. But once properly understood, it's very easy and gives loads of info!!!
All the Links are:

Celtic Cross, and how to read it:
I have edited this doc;

Follow this link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IL-JvvSxlQgNf342P2jMSz75gpTmfTgyUYhW2qaWAM4/edit

MB Thread:



Blessed be.

Is there anyone, who may have a comment?

Yep, I do. Sorry, PW, I haven't been around too much lately because of some issues at work, but I appreciate your debates, you know it.

Ok, to begin with, I missed your posting the actual layout of the cards. Many of us aren't familiar with the CC and, even those of us who are and use it frequently, may be using slight variations of it. It is such an old and popular spread that there are many versions, not only in layout but in the meaning of each position.
For example, after reading your post carefully through, I concluded you lay the cards in the following order and positions:
                               
                                               10
                      3
                                                9
                      S
         5           1(2)      6             8
                                                 
                      4                         7

While I have always laid them in this order:

                                                         10
                       5
                                                          9
                      S (not always)
           4          1(2)                 6          8  

                       3                                 7

I also use the vertical and horizontal trios, but I usually see the vertical line as representing the person right now, with 5 being the thoughts or conscious intentions, 1 the heart or emotions and 3 the unconscious impulse. 3 is usually older and stronger, having been ignored for a long time by the querent, and very often gives the key to the whole reading, since it may be the person's inner instincts fighting to get through.
The horizontal line represents the timing of events, with 4 being the recent past or how the person felt up till now, and 6 some event, meeting or influence in the near future. But it is card 2 -laid horizontally over card 1- that links this line for me, since I see 1 as the true self, often hidden from others, and 2 as the mask, or the way the person usually acts and shows his or herself to others. That is why these two cards are often very different or even opposing each other, unless the querent is quite self assured and balanced.

Then 7 I read as the querent's attitude concerning the present issue. As you say, we have the power to project our future, so this is a very important card. No good results can be obtained through a bad attitude. Sometimes card 9 illustrates the reason for a negative attitude.
Card 8 I read as the seeker's environment: friends, colleagues, family, lover. They can either help or hinder, and the querent can feel backed up or rejected in this situation.
Card 9, "hopes and fears" is always hard for beginners. Specially because I can usually read the same card as both the fears AND the hopes. We humans are such contradictory creatures that what we usually fear most is success and its possible consequences on our routine.
Card 10 is the possible outcome, but it is easy to draw a blank on this card. As you say, you can get a courtier, but it is hard to see a person as an outcome, unless the question was "will I finally be together with...?". Majors I usually interpret as something quite pivotal in the querent's life, but it is easy to draw a blank. Last time I read with the CC I got The Fool in this position, which I usually read as 'Jump blindly! Go for it!'... Only it wasn't a possible answer in this instance. When that happens, I usually draw one last card that should describe how the person will feel after this outcome.

I also use reversals. When first looking at the spread, if I see too many -never more than 50%- I get a feeling of blocked energy or obstacles, so I try to find during the actual reading if the person has been feeling poorly or overworked, or just plain uncomfortable with the situation.

I also pay attention to the Major/Minor ratio. The more Majors, the more important this issue is for the querent, specially when they come up as the unconscious level, the heart, hopes and fears, or the outcome.

I make a head count of the suits and how often each is represented. This gives you an indication of what the querent really has in mind. For example, if the question was about relationships and no cups or swords appear, but mainly clubs and/or pentacles, I conclude the person is really too busy with the practical side of life to give much thought to relationships, thus these could be on the downslide.
But I also pay attention to the suits that don't come up: a lack of pentacles may mean the person needs to get more practical in a hurry in order to get the best results. A lack of swords may mean being too impulsive, specially when clubs are all over the spread. If no clubs appear I might be inclined to worry about the person's level of energy and/or health, etc.

I also take into account if we get the same number in several suits -eg. 4 of Cups, 4 of Swords, etc-, which would be stressing the importance of solid foundations and/or obstacles; or a progression or regression of connecting numbers in the same suit -eg. 3, 4, 5, of swords-, which usually can tell a story by themselves.

I never thought about the direction in which the card people are looking, but I think it is an interesting aspect. I will try to remember next time.

Once the querent or I have shuffled, we make 3 piles with the left hand -or the non leading hand- and turn them over. I read these 3 cards as a first glimpse of the situation. Then we put them back down and together so they have a chance to come up in the reading. BTW, this is one reason I don't like significators much: I prefer all cards come up by themselves.

What I always do after going through the whole CC reading, whether the outcome was clear or not, is to get a different angle using the same cards. So I pick them up in the same order I laid them and lay them down in a row -keeping the reversals if there were any-, 1 to 10 or 11, depending on whether we drew a second outcome card or not, or if we used a significator or not -I tend to use them more with people who come for a first reading, so that they get familiar with the images and relax, since I let them pick their own significator from among all Court cards-.
Then I read them by connecting them by pairs from both extremes working towards the center: 1+10, 2+9, 3+8... If we have an uneven number of cards, usually card 6 ends up as the center of the question, an indication that coming events can change things for better or worse, so it is good to keep alert for them.

So, what do you all think? I hope it was useful to get different views on the same spread.

Hugs  

Yes, it is useful Pirbid, even though I don't like using the Celtic Cross for readings. I feel the CC has placements which I find a bit irrelevant, like position 7, 8 and 9.

I do like though positions 1 to 6. I like them because they show a short term and long term picture of past, present and future. But when it comes to positions 7, 8 and 9 I find these positions could be re-invented, re-phrased rather than the time old placements they have come to be known as:

7: Self attitude.
8: Others' position.
9: Hope and Fears. So, what is the big deal with this position? We all have hopes about a situation as much as we have fears about things.

Position 10, as well as position 3 and 6 all talk about some kind of an outcome, albeit in different time frames.  If position 3 is the short term - immediate - outcome and position 6 the medium-term future outcome, why do we need yet another form of outcome in position 10?

I have used the CC in the way PW has portrayed and I must admit within the 'rules' of the Celtic Cross, this is the one that I find the most 'workable'..... but I still believe positions 7 to 10 can be rephrased to make them more tangible to the querent.

Pirbid, I also agree with you there are different placements for the CC spread and that is the very reason why I was put off with the CC when I first started learning the Tarot cards.

Let's keep the comments coming in.

p.s. I don't do reversals intentionally, i.e. shuffling the cards in such a way to 'create' reversals. But if and when a reverse cards do come though, I will accept them and read as such.

Hi Pirbid,

We need to look at the way AE Waite designed his deck. The Rider Waite deck is virtually which every other deck is based on. The Celtic Cross is an age old spread, and is accepted as a spread giving the most information. We shouldn't discount any other spread, as these may also contain a lot of information, but, the reader should then be more professional to seek the right symbolism and interpret the cards correctly.

AE Waite was a Freemason, and as such the symbolism is based on a lot of Freemason theories. He was also a member of the Golden Dawn. Which unfortunately went into disgrace at some point of time.

The numbers attached to each card, is in fact gleaned from Pythagoras, who invented Numerology "so to speak". We also need to consider that the Rider-Waite deck is based on the Sola Busca Tarot, which is centuries old.

When looking at card four, we see a definite set of bounderies and being the foundation of any situation, circumstance or event!

Therefore, have a look at these theories the Freemason Society has:

Architecture
Symbol of the foundation of Free¬masonry which is a speculative science derived from an operative art. Operative Freemasons were principally concerned in the erection of edifices for public use: cathedrals, churches, monasteries, castles for the feudal lords, etc. Inasmuch as all these structures required a deep knowledge of many arts, architecture survives in Speculative Masonry as a symbol for the need of knowledge and skill in all important undertakings. The whole internal structure of Freemasonry's ritual is permeated with and built around matter!' of architecture and of building, not used for their original purposes, but for "the more noble and glorious purpose" of setting forth some principle of life, some philosophy, some aspect of character making. Buildings are the "documents in stone" of men, civilizations, even races, which have long perished from the earth. Freemasonry's use of architecture as a foundation symbol also has reference to a need for a study of history to round out the liberal education otherwise taught in the Fellowcraft degree. The five orders of architecture are "a flotsam which has been wafted to us down the stream of time from that remote period when Freemasonry was an organization of operative Masons" (Street). Mackey considered only the first three as symbols; other authorities believe that all five are included in the Winding Stair teachings to fix the attention of the initiate on the importance of architecture in general and solid building in particular, as components of a liberal education.

Cornerstone
Symbol of beginning; symbol of sacrifice. Cornerstones are laid in the North-east corner-Entered Apprentices stand in the Northeast corner of the lodge. The point mid¬way between the darkness of the North and the brilliance of the East was chosen by ancient builders as the point of beginning, a spot to mark a birth, a commencement of a new struc¬ture. Who stands in the darkness has no light; on whom falls the whole light of the brilliant East and its rising sun is not in darkness. Half way between, then, is a symbol of a beginning-the traveler has left the darkness and moved towards the light. Those who build have left the "dark¬ness" in which is no building, and progressed far enough towards "light" to lay a foundation stone. Early man believed that the spirits of the earth, the air, of nature, would destroy what they erected, unless a spiritual defender haunted the structure to defend it. As the gods were far stronger than men, what was sacrificed to them must be of the best. Hence arose the awful rite of "foundation sacrifice" in which human victims were walled up in the cornerstones, thrown bound into the hollowed foundation to die a miserable death of suffocation, or, more mercifully, be crushed to death by the stone laid on top of their bodies. Freemasons lay cornerstones and in the hollowed center put the book, the picture, the coin, the newspaper of the day, the remains of the ancient superstition that without a human sacrifice to provide a protective ghost to haunt the building it will fall.


Forty-seventh Problem of Euclid
Symbol of geometry; of exact science. Passed over with but a few words of ritual, it is Masonically most in¬teresting. It appears on the frontispiece of An¬derson's Constitutions, published in 1723; Street says it is the earliest example of a printed symbol of Freemasonry. It was apparently known to ancient mathematicians long before Pythagoras (Masonically credited as its discoverer) or Eu¬clid, who made of the properties of a right-angled triangle his forty-seventh problem. It is the root of all mathematics used to determine an unknown from two knowns. Given the distance of a moun¬tain and the angle of sight to its top, mathematics may determine its height. Tunnels are driven through mountains from both sides to meet ex¬actly by means of measurements made by the forty-seventh problem. Navigation of the seas depends upon it. In non-Euclidian language, a right angled triangle of 3 feet base and 4 feet height, has a line 5 feet long joining the free ends of the two legs. The square of 3 is 9; the square of 4 is 16; the sum of 9 and 16 is 25; the square root of 25 is 5. All right-angled triangles, regardless of the length of base and upright, follow this law; that the line joining the free ends (the hypotenuse) is the square root of the sum {)f the squares of the two sides. Therefore, if any two of the three are known, the third may be calculated. According to the ritual "it teaches Masons to he general lovers of the arts and sciences". This short description encompasses the study of geometry. The ritual is here not factual. Pythagoras was poor and could hardly have possessed a hecatomb (hundred head of cattle). He was a vegetarian, and reverenced animal life; he would not have killed one cow, let alone a hundred, to "celebrate" his discovery. He may have cried "Eureka", but could hardly have been "raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason," which did not take even an ancient and simple form until centuries after he died.


Geometry
(See Forty-seventh Problem.) "God is always geometrizing," said the ancient philos¬opher. In the Fellowcraft Degree, geometry is a symbol not only of mathematics but of the divine and moral significance of abstract truth.

Square
(See Great Lights.) Symbol of the Mas¬ter; of rectitude of life and conduct; of morality, truthfulness, honesty. So universal is the knowl¬edge of its meaning that the word has percolated into all strata of society. The "square man" is the honest man. To "act on the square" is to act honestly. In Freemasonry to "part upon the square" has its own symbolism. The square is a tool made of two members, pointing in different directions. Those directions are "right" with each other-a right angle, so called because the 90 degree angle is the only correct angle for stones which are to build a perpendicular and stable wall. When brethren "part upon the square," they leave each other in different direc¬tions, but in directions of which, if their desti¬nation be unknown, their rightness is known. Brethren part in the full knowledge that their courses until they meet again will be according to the angle of a square--right.

Triangle
Wherever expressed in Freemasonry, whether by reference to the number three, or the position of any three objects, the symbol is of Deity. (See Lesser Lights.) Throughout the Craft emphasis is put upon the number three; three Lights, greater and lesser; three steps on the Master's Carpet; three steps at the beginning of the Winding Stairs; three principal officers; three degrees; three due guards; etc., etc. The number three is but another way of expressing the idea of a triangle, earliest symbol for Deity, inasmuch as it is the simplest closed figure (signifying endlessness) which can be formed of straight lines. The emphasis upon three, or the triangle, is Freemasonry's symbol of Deity-being without beginning or ending.

Fourty-seventh Problem of Euclid
Symbol of geometry; of exact science. Passed over with but a few words of ritual, it is Masonically most in¬teresting. It appears on the frontispiece of An¬derson's Constitutions, published in 1723; Street says it is the earliest example of a printed symbol of Freemasonry. It was apparently known to ancient mathematicians long before Pythagoras (Masonically credited as its discoverer) or Eu¬clid, who made of the properties of a right-angled triangle his forty-seventh problem. It is the root of all mathematics used to determine an unknown from two knowns. Given the distance of a moun¬tain and the angle of sight to its top, mathematics may determine its height. Tunnels are driven through mountains from both sides to meet ex¬actly by means of measurements made by the forty-seventh problem. Navigation of the seas depends upon it. In non-Euclidian language, a right angled triangle of 3 feet base and 4 feet height, has a line 5 feet long joining the free ends of the two legs. The square of 3 is 9; the square of 4 is 16; the sum of 9 and 16 is 25; the square root of 25 is 5. All right-angled triangles, regardless of the length of base and upright, follow this law; that the line joining the free ends (the hypotenuse) is the square root of the sum {)f the squares of the two sides. Therefore, if any two of the three are known, the third may be calculated. According to the ritual "it teaches Masons to he general lovers of the arts and sciences". This short description encompasses the study of geometry. The ritual is here not factual. Pythagoras was poor and could hardly have possessed a hecatomb (hundred head of cattle). He was a vegetarian, and reverenced animal life; he would not have killed one cow, let alone a hundred, to "celebrate" his discovery. He may have cried "Eureka", but could hardly have been "raised to the sublime degree of Master Mason," which did not take even an ancient and simple form until centuries after he died.

Numbers
Freemasonry preserves some ancient superstitions and pseudo science in her use for and reverence of odd numbers and especially for 3, 5 and 7. Probably the most important number in Masonry is 3, since there is so much use for it. (See Triangle.) Of numerology in Masonry, Oliver Day Street said: "One of the most curious bodies of learning of the ancient world, many fragments of which are scattered throughout Masonry. It is exceedingly difficult for the modern mind to grasp what is meant by this so-called science, so highly speculative was it. It does not allude, as its name might seem to indicate" to any of the mathematical sciences, or anything akin to them. It was a moral science or philosophy, wherein numbers were given symbolical meaning and the letters of the alphabet were given numerical values; whence words were supposed to have certain occult significations according to the sums or multiples of the numerical equivalents of its letters. The elaboration of this idea was productive of the Hebrew Kabala. Pythagoras is reputed to have introduced this school among the Greeks and according to Aristotle he taught that 'Number is the principle of all things and that the organization of the Universe is an harmonic system of numerical ratios.' "

Oblong Square
Symbol of the "form of a lodge" which in turn is a symbol of the known world of the ancients-Spain in the west, Asia Minor in the east, lines east and west a few miles north and south of the Mediterranean. "Oblong square" has been objected to by purists as a contradiction in terms; that an oblong is a rectangle with un¬equal sides and perpendiculars while a square is a rectangle with equal sides and perpendiculars. The word "square" did not originally denote a figure with four equal sides, but any figure which had right angles at all four corners. Later "square" came to mean not only "right angled," but a figure inclosed by four equal length lines, any adjoining two of which formed a right angle. "Oblong square," then, meant anciently what "ob¬long" means today.

Now, numbers as associated by any author, may not be the way in which it was supposed to be.

Four is the foundation and therefore should always be at the bottom of a spread. Look closely, you will see that four and seven is absolutely related, because the foundation was or has been created by the querant and can not be altered!

Incidently, the Thoh deck, is also based on the RW, due to the influence of AE Waite on Alaister Crowley!

The most interesting, is that so many authors or designers of Tarot, is trying to re-invent the wheel, and in fact may make a fool of themselves! Tarot is not a competition between readers, authors or the likes, it's a personal experience, whith which, common knowledge and intuition plays a very big role.

To study the derivatives, is like Alice in Wonderland! No clear perception is available. Sorry to say this, but unfortunately it's the truth.

Blessed be.