Hi Tabi,

Yes we can make anyone beleive whatever we want, and unfortunately the history is fairly obscure and tainted. This is mostly ascribed to the egoboosting "absolute" knowledge claimed by a few authors. There is artwork that do have tarot links or portray tarot cards.

I stand to be corrected but the link between Tarot and the 21 possibilities on the throw of dice has been described. The Zodiac was at one stage named the wheel of fortune, even showing it's 4 degree tilt. It's actually a area which i'm currently researching. This was described way before the TDM.

Blessed be

What I've learned of Tarot so far goes like this. The Marmaluk Empire had a card game. It involved things like, Coines, Batons, ect. This card game was carried to Italy and evolved into Triumph, which is a game still played today. Eventualy the cards came to be used in connection with the occult. Finally the TDM (Thanks for this abbreviation guys ;) ) was developed fully for this purpose. Ever since that Tarot has been based on the TDM model, but employs diffrent artistic expressions of the arcana ect. So it is correct to say that the TDM is the first Tarot deck unless you can produce an earlier complete deck that the full deck of today is uniformly based on like the TDM is. Certainly I can be wrong I'm not all that knowledgable. I'm going with what I've learned thus far.

Hi Jon, yes, yet another Theory, the one mostly referred to is that it was used and developed in Italy and then carried to france by alliete. The other theory is that it was developed in Egypt as a secret code after the worshiping of one God was bannished.

Another theory is that it was developed in the Persian empire in conjunction with Geomancy.

Another interesting link, is that all forms of eastern divinatory practises,: I-Ching, Chinese Astrology, encapsulated in a single system of which Tarot is but one differing leg.

ILL Triomfy regards each card as trumping each other, thus indicating a definite rise to spiritual enlightenment, you can see that in the TDM, it represents the seven stars and one in the middle, in TDM it's displayed as different layers.

Consider hereby that there is not only one heaven, maybe the christian theories try to reject this, it's described in your Bible as well as in writings of Zoroaster of which Gnostisisem stemmed, and was then attracted by this religiuos grouping and then became christianity.

In any event, Zoroaster and Dionusys, ascribed the angels to each five degrees of the Zodiac, long before christianity was in its inception. Christianity then included this as part of their teachings. I have nothing against your religious grouping, but want to show you where the seven layers of spiritual development was already described. This entire system was then brought toghether, even having influences from Hermes Transmegistus, he was said to have lived longer than 2000 years. All of these are theories and to beleive in one origin might be right for you and another in something totally different?

I was unfortunately very busy last night and couldn't really read up more. But will do so today. It's very interesting and all just if's and buts.

Blessed be

I fail to see how our discussion of the origin of the Tarot deck should bring about a discussion about the origin of Christianity. As far as the origin of Christianity is concerned; your facts are mixed up. Gnosticism developed along side of Christianity. I did not precede it. Gnosticism was the Platonic knockoff of the Jewish sect known as Christianity. Christianity is a Jewish religion, not a Greek or Persian one. Zoraster taught the existance of two equal and opposite gods not one God the way Judaism does.
Back to the topic at hand. You haven't yet offered an insight into why the TDM deck is the deck that our modern Tarot system is based on. If the TDM is the origin of our modern system then it is proper to speak of TDM as being the first deck.

Hi Jon, yes let's leave our respective religions, we will never reconcile it, it's just interesting how it came about and what was retained from us Pagans?

My friend sorry it took me a while was busy and so on. I have two articles for you, the last one i actually took exerpts from Robert M. Place, you should try tp get his book, it explains a lot of loose ends, Plato, neoplonism and tetractus. Another system of divination you'l find in the Triumpho di Fortuna by Fanti, in this book, divination is based on the roll of the dice(of which you get 21 combinations) and systems of wheels which direct you through the book. Somehow it's also linked to the wheel of the Zodiac then known as the wheel of fate or fortune.

Jon, it seems very difficult to attach the document, i can e-mail it to you!

Blessed be