Q    Would i be correct in assuming that Kal is the physical mind which keeps running out all the time?

A    The soul has its connection with the Lord. Mind is the agent of Kal, who is its source, just as the Lord is the source of the soul. You may call it universal mind, you may call it Kal. Soul is the essence of the Lord.

Q    Can soul and mind ever overcome Kal?

A    Yes, In the body, the seat of the soul and mind knotted together is just between and behind the eyes. From here our mind is being pulled down by the senses. So, our mind has become the slave of the senses, and the soul has become a slave of the mind, for through the mind it also is being drawn to the senses. Now we are to reverse the process. When mind wants to go to senses, it will go there, but if it refuses to be attracted to them, it becomes our friend. Why do we want to withdraw our mind from the senses? Because th soul is under the control of the mind. When, with the help of Shabd, our mind comes back to its own home,  the soul gets released from the mind, and the processs is thus reversed. Then the soul is controlling the mind, and the mind is controlling the senses.

It is with the help of Simran and Dhyan that we have to withdraw the mind from the senses, and by attaching our mind to the Shabd, we have to withdraw the soul from the mind. As long as the mind is running towards the senses, you cannot have a worse enemy. When the mind withdraws from the senses and is attached to the Shabd, we cannot have a better friend. Unless the mind goes back to its origin, the soul can never get released from the mind. We have only to convert this enmity to friendship, by the grace of the Lord, by means of meditation, as imparted to us through his saints.

Q    May I ask you please, Sir, how accurate are the descriptions by Dr. Johnson in his book, The Path of the Masters, on the four grand divisions --- Sat   Desh, Brahmand, Anda and Pinda; are they accurate, word by word? Are those areas accurate --- I mean is that description accurate, word by word?

A    It is very difficult to describe the spiritual world by mere words, but then we cannot do without words. You cannot measure and weigh every word, but naturally, only throgh languages can anything be described -- to a lesser or greater degree. After all, language is a mode of expression to describe things but any language is most inadequate to describe these regions. Sometimes certain points are under and sometimes over-emphasized; but we learn to discount written languages on certain points.

Q     Would you say that in as far as using language is concerned, that there are four regions?

A     As I just explained to you, many saints have tried to explain those regions. Mostly the saints have tried to explain them in the same number of divisions, but many mystics, even Indian mystics, have just referred to two regions -- one consisting of what lies below Trikuti, and the other as all that which is above Triuti; one region under the reign of Mind and Maya, and the other region above the reign of Mind and Maya. But others have referred to five regions, and still others have subdivided the fifth region. We should not get confused with how many regions or stages have been described. Actuallly, it is the same journey, and they are not water-tight compartments. The thing has to be described in one way or another, so these languages just describe them. Some have described just two regions; some have classified the two regions into four, some into five and some into eight regions. Actually, it is the same journey, and covers the same territory, whether classified as consisting of two, four, five or eight regions.

Q     Each time you go out to this Infinite region, if Infinite is Infinite, it extends all the way but each time you go out you are exploring more of this Infinite, of God?

A     Naturally, unless one has reached the destination one has to explore more and more every time. Then if you reach the destination, the goal, what can there be beyond it?

Q     Master, are there regions above Sach Khand, or is that the ultimate?

A     Sister, Sach Khand is the last, but some people divide it into subdivisions, called Alakh, Agam and Anami. They are just subdivisions of the same region. Some people say there are just two regions, one up to Trikuti, and the other beyond Trikuti. These are not water-tight descriptions, I would say. Sometimes we just get lost in trying to describe regions. The aim is the Lord, and we are to merge back into Him. Call it just one journey, make it four stages, make it two stages, make it eight stages; these are just quibbling with words. Generally, saints have subdivided the fifth region into another three regions, calling them Alakh, Agam and Anami or Radha Soami. Or, one can call the whole fifth region Sach Khan. It makes no difference.

Q     Master, on the astral plane, is it possible for souls there without the benefit of even having known a Sat Guru, to ever come to the realization such as we do in the human body? And for the first time realize the tru Lord and not be satisfied with where they are? Would they have a chance to go on further from there by their own efforts?

A    They need to come back into the flesh and find a Living Master.

Q    Is it then a fact that we need the body in order to grow spiritually, and without the body or in the astral there is no growth whatsoever?

A    There is growth also in the astral planes.

Q    Is it very slow?

A    Very slow, that is right, very slow. That is why this body is known as the top of creation. There are also astral forms, astral regions in the creation, but the human body is considered to be the top of creation because while living in this body we can make better progress, better growth than in those astral regions. But once we have a Master, we do make progress from there too, without coming back into the human form.

Q    Maharaj Ji, when one dies and goes to another region, what are the activitiesof the soul? Are they like anything on this earth?

A    I think I explained that to you this morning. There is no activity. The activity is that of love, to make our way up. What I said yesterday is that we make much better spiritual progress by being in this human form than from inside these astral planes, because here we see so much misery around us that we want to escape from it. So, we are always thinking about the Lord. We want to go back to Him. We do not want to remain here, so we try to work hard to go back to Him. Without intense longing we cannot merge back into Him. And there, since there is no misery, no birth nor death, the yearning to go back is very little.

Q     It is my understanding that when one dies and the soul goes to one of these regions, one spends perhaps about fifteen hundredyears there before one comes back into a human body. What does one do these fifteen hundred years?

A    I cannot set the time-limit as to how long you have to stay there, as that all depends on how much karma remains to be worked off. But having a Master, we may not have to come back into the human body at all. We can alway smake our way up from there. We only come back into a human body if we have certain attachments left in this world. That alone brings us back to this world. Otherwise we do not have to come back.

Q    Is there suffering in the astral plane? Or is this the plane for offsetting our bad karma?

A    There is no physical suffering there. Mental suffering is there, in the sense that we are away from the Lord, Physical suffering is only in the physical body.

Q    Is it possible to give and receive instructions on the astral plane, line when sleeping?

A    When you are sleeping you are not on the astral plane. You are just at the throat center. But we can sometimes get instructions in sleep. We think it is sleep, but actually it may not be sleep.

Q    Master, once you get to the first stage, in other words, you get up there and cross over and meet the Master in his Radiant Form, after that stage, even though He may appear before you there, suppose you get there in a lifetime, is there a chance you may fall back down?

A    Yes.

Q    You mean there is no guarantee that once you get up there with Him...?

A    Well, there are certain forceful karmas that pull us down again, sometimes, even from the second stage. As long as the mind is there, you can never be sure. And when you get release from the mind, nothing can pull you back down.

Q    At what level is cosmic consciousness?

A    Sister, that is a scientific term which people try to fit in with the spiritual. Our consciousness, right now, is at the eyes, and how far above the eyes can anyone take his consciousness, without the aid of a teacher? Will that help to give you some concept as to what cosmic consciousness is?

Q     I read about the different levels above the eyes. Now I am trying to figure how our concept of cosmic consciousness, where will that fit in?

A     It is a matter of degree of your experience is it not? It depends upon how much you are experiencing, either on a level within your nine outlets, the nine apertures or gates of the body, as we call it in this work; or have you gotten into the tenth door and gone on beyond that point? So, you wanted to know what level it is? The tenth door is above the eyes. The Tenth Door, Daswan Dwar, as they call it in Sant Mat literature. The Third Eye, Tisra Til or the Single Eye denotes the same thing.

Q     What was in the beginning?

A     First, there was only the Lord, who is without beginning and without end. He has projected Himself everywhere. There was nothing besides Him. He was the only one. All that we see isjust His own projection. Everything is projected from Him. If we admit that there was something besides Him, then the Lord is not one. He is the only One -- always was, is and will be. He is everywhere, and everything is His own projection.

Q      Maharaj Ji, does all human life start in lower forms and evolve upwards? I mean, in animal forms, or even lower?

A      He created the whole thing. The creation did not develop slowly from one thing. He simply projected Himself, through His Word, the Shabd, and the whole world and everything in it was created at once.

Q      Man is a created man?

A      Some of the human beings are created as human beings, and some have transmigrated into the lower species also.

Q      To animals, and man evolved to higher forms?

A      Oh, yes. Every soul is given a chance to come up to the status of a human being.

Q      Insects, too?

A      Yes, insects too. They will get a chance to become human beings at least once, whether they make use of that opportunity or not.

Q      When we look upon an ant, a little object crawling, could we assume that soul was once a human form?

A      Yes.

Q      Everything except the form which is God, is actually unreal, because only that which is Eternal is real. Is that right?

A      That is right. How can we say anything is real when it is not permanent----here today and gone tomorrow?

Q      And everything that we see out here is like a sun-beam, and at the most distant end of that sun-beam it looks out, and everything that we see, that is the way we become mesmerized in this world? And only by looking back through the sun-beam you see reality, is that true?

A      That is right. All that we see with the physical eyes is made up of one or more of the five elements, namely, earth, water, fire, air and ether. And all these five elements are inimical to each other. But with the help of, or due to that ray of Shabd, the soul, which is also a ray of the Supreme Father, all of the five elements are contained and active in a human body, each one manifesting them according to his own karmas --- in that proportion. But all the five elements are active, in a greater or lesser degree, in every human body. We are moving about, but the day that the Lord takes the soul away from the body, all these five elements begin to decompose. The earth goes back to the earth, the water goes back to the water, and each element merges back into its own origin. So, it is a salvation from the physical body when these five elements merges back into its own. So, it is a salvation from the physical body when these five elements merge back into their own origin. That is the physical death. And salvation from birth and death is attained when the soul reaches Trikuti, Brahm, and the mind merges back into the universel mind. Salvation for a soul is when it merges back into the Supreme Father, its own origin.

For the purpose of functioning in this world, the soul has taken the association of the mind and senses, but, unfortunately the soul has not remained in control of the mind and senses. Mind is fond of pleasures, and so it has become a slave of the senses, dragging the soul down alongwith it to the extent that now the soul has become a slave of the senses also, through the agency of the mind. As a result, the mind as well as the soul has forgotten its origin and purpose.

We get a body according to our actions and reactions, whether it is in the human form or anywhere else. But we can find the path out of this mess, or out of this jail, only in the human form, and this grace is bestowed upon us by Him, just for this very purpose. So, while being in this body, we should always keep our destination in view and try to tread on that path which leads to our destination. We should never forget it. WE should perform our worldly duties and other responsibilities which we have to discharge, while being in this world according to our karma, so to say. But we shoul always keep our destination in view and try to tread on that path which leads to our Home. The path leading to our destination should always be our main road. We should not deviate to the left or the right, but keep our goal always in mind while traveling straight on that path.

Q      Can the conscious personality be projected to God-realization, leaving the body at will and returning after gaining this desired goal of God-reliazation, and know of it?

A      That is what the spiritual practice is for. We are trying to withdraw ourselves at will, to be there, and to come back at our will, and be here. That is the whole object of meditation.

Q       I  have heard that some schools say there are seven bodies, and some schools say there are three bodies --- physical, astral and casual. Can you comment on that, please?

A      Brother, I only know that according to Sant Mat literature there are three. I have not heard or read about the seven.

Q      What is the final goal? Is it where God and I are one? What does this mean, exactly? Is there a sense of individuality?

A      The idea is, "I and God are one.""I and the Father are one." The soul is the essence of the Lord. It has come from the Lord and it will merge back into the Lord and again become one. (Maharaj Ji explained at length about the drop of water merging back into the ocean, the drop of water in the mud merging back into the cloud, and so forth, as has already been explained elsewhere, so is not repeated here). All of us and the Father are one. There was nothing besides the Father when He creaed the universe. Everything was one and that One was, is and always will be the Father, the Supreme Being. The creation is His projection, and when He again withdraws everything into Himself, it again becomes one.

A     Ultimately there will be no difference. As yet there is a great difference between the drop and the ocean. But when the drop merges into the ocean there is absolutely no difference.

Q     Can one reach perfection in his life, or does one have to die to go back to the Lord?

A     Sister, we have to die daily to go back to Him.

Q     What do you mean, I do not understand?

A     When death takes place, what do we feel? First our feet become numb, then our legs become numb, then our thighs and th elower portion of the body becomes numb. Still the soul is in us, still we are conscious, we are still living, life is still within us. When we withdraw the current up to th eeye center, the soul leaves the body, and we say the person is dead. In our spiritual practice, we do the same while living, the only difference being that the connection is not severed and we come back into the body after meditation. It is a method of dying dialy. Some Christian saint said, "I die daily." That means that he daily practices the withdrawal of teh consciousness right fro his feet up to the eye center, in order to follow the spiritual path within.

We are not to die physically to meet Him, but we have to die daily in our spiritual practice to meet Him. We have to withdraw our consciousness up to the eye center. This is dying while living. Then only we will be on the real path. We are not to leave the physical body permanently in order to go back to Him. If we are not able to achieve our destination in this life but are on the path, it is possible that we may achieve it in the next life or in still another life; but we need not wait until after death in order to meet Him. We have to be on the path while living in a human body, and the aim is also to meet Him during our lifetime.

Q      If one fails to reach God-realization in this life, will he have another chance?

A      The Lord does not find excuses to send us back again and again. He gives us quite a fair chance to make progress on the path. In fact, it is our attachments that are pulling us down every time. Generally, if we are not much attached to the world, even though we may not make much headway towards Home, we are given another chance to loosen those attachments. But we have to do that by meansw of spiritual practice while we are in the human form. However, if we have not found a Living Master and refuse to travel that path, refuse to think about the Lord, have absolutely no devotion for Him, have no desire whatsoever to go Hom, we will not continue to get a human body; we hve to go down into a lower species. We then get that form in which we can satisfy all the unfulfilled desires and cravings that come in our mind every day.

It is our karmas and desires coupled together that bring us every time into birth and death. Whatever seeds we sow, we have to come back to reap. Whatever we desire, we crave, and we do not get or sublimate while in this world, we have to take birth to satisfy those unfulfilled desires and cravings. So, unless we clear our karmas, unless we clear ourselves from all these desires and cravings, we cannot escape from birth and death. We do get a chance. The Lord is more merciful. He always helps us and gives us chance after chance to make the best use of our life. But if we refuse to make use of that chance, naturally we have to go down into the lower species.