Folks, as per Govardhan_VT's request i would like to ask  a pertinent and valid question here..

Are astrological remedial measures given by astrologers a game of karma tampering and hence unethical in a spiritual sense ?   or will God be pleased that we mastered the art of planetary sciences and are using it to our advantage? If we tamper with karmas then God's purpose of justice is lost.

I have heard there are adepts in the Himalays who know the exact time of their death based on planetary position. Just prior to this time they take off on an astral journey and return to their bodies after that time has elapsed. They are able to stay out of their bodies for brief periods of time. In essence they are actually playing with whatever was originally dished out to them karmically.

A doctor who treats a sick patient is doing a noble job because he is not altering planetary effects  , he is even unaware of the planets above, so he is in no way playing with karma, besides medical discoveries we should consider are gifts from God.

A wellwisher who prays, is again asking god to intervene.

But an astrologer on the other hand is trying to either please planets or negating their effects, how ethical is this in the original scheme of things as ordained by God, could this be called karmic tampering?

Dear Mysticdoubts,

Perhaps I can attempt to answer your question....

Karma is what is dished out to us in this life as an account of wrong doings (well intended or not) in previous lives.  It is not necessarily "punishment" for bad things we have done, but simply a debt we have incurred in previous lives which has to be paid back in this life or in lives to come (if we choose not to pay it back in the present).  

I believe what astrologers are doing is showing us how to pay back that debt in order that it will not harm us in the process.  Paying back Karma, is not about us hurting ourselves or doing dangerous things to ourselves and others in this life, nor is it about escaping the inevitable.  If you have a certain karma to pay back to another soul, no amount of astrology can or will prevent you from encountering this soul and facing the choice of paying it back or not.

The best astrology can do is tell you "when" it would be most favourable for you to pay this back, and "how" it could be paid back in order to wipe the slate clean.

If you have to marry a certain person, because you owe them a debt from a previous life, astrology can only point out to you in what year such a union will prove most successful.  

Since I don't believe in coincidence, I do believe the planets are actually IN CONCERT with your Karma, that is why you were born in a particular place, on a particular day and at a particular time.  I do believe Creator uses these tools in order to ensure that you have the choice to pay back what you owe to the Universe.  Having said that, sometimes it is not Karma which is the issue here, but what you have asked for before birth.  Lessons you wanted or needed to learn, or perhaps a mission you yourself have decided upon before you came to this dimension.  In this case the planets would only be "pointers" and "indicators" to remind you of your prehuman descision and guide you in this dimension in order to carry it out.

If you wish to marry someone and astrology advises against it, it is probably because this is NOT the person you owe karmically, or this is NOT the person that owes you karmically, and you would be making a mistake to link up to this person, because when the right person comes along, you will then have much more difficulty in finding a way to pay your debt to this person, or vice versa.

You wrote:

I have heard there are adepts in the Himalays who know the exact time of their death based on planetary position. Just prior to this time they take off on an astral journey and return to their bodies after that time has elapsed. They are able to stay out of their bodies for brief periods of time. In essence they are actually playing with whatever was originally dished out to them karmically.

Here is my take on this:

If they were able to "fool" death by taking an astral journey, where did they go to?  Perhaps it was to negotiate some more time on earth?  Also, if they could do this every time, why do they eventually die anyway?  Have they ever mentioned where they go to on these journeys?  And since it is only the BODY that dies anyway, is this relevant at all?  Is death a body without a soul?  Or is it the destruction of the body only? (in which case they fooled no one, since the soul is indestructable in any case....)  And why would they want to come back to their bodies if leaving your body behind is actually "elevating to a higher plane of existence"?

If one could choose between this world and a Spirit World where one has so much more freedom, why would one ever want to come back to this world of limitations?  Could it be that they actually "initiated death" by this astral travel but WAS SENT BACK, because it was NOT their time yet?  As far as I know these people all do what they do, and live where they live BECAUSE they are trying to reach Nirvana.  Coming back to your body would therefore be a "down grading" as far as I am concerned...  A sort of..."You haven't reached this state yet, so go back and do it all over again...and come back in your astral body next time when you are REALLY prepared...."

Just my ramblings.....


love and rainbows

Raka

Dear Mlday Raka,

Thanks for your reply.

You wrote:
Quote
Karma is what is dished out to us in this life as an account of wrong doings (well intended or not) in previous lives.  It is not necessarily "punishment" for bad things we have done, but simply a debt we have incurred in previous lives which has to be paid back in this life or in lives to come (if we choose not to pay it back in the present).  

I believe what astrologers are doing is showing us how to pay back that debt in order that it will not harm us in the process.  Paying back Karma, is not about us hurting ourselves or doing dangerous things to ourselves and others in this life, nor is it about escaping the inevitable.  If you have a certain karma to pay back to another soul, no amount of astrology can or will prevent you from encountering this soul and facing the choice of paying it back or not.
Unquote.

Yes i agree.

You wrote:
Quote
The best astrology can do is tell you "when" it would be most favourable for you to pay this back, and "how" it could be paid back in order to wipe the slate clean.
Unquote

Brillant logic, but just pause for a minute. In India astrological remedies to wipe karmic slate clean could be in the form of rituals and donations to please planets to negate harmful effects. In doing a ritual we have not paid back, its a state of not being affected karmically because the planet has now withdrawn its malefic influence on us. We may have to repay in the next birth where god will make sure we visit no astrologer and seek no rituals. May be we could be born in Siberia where it is too cold for astrology to be of any interest.  . Now we will be dragging this other person we have to pay back also to Siberia?

You wrote:
Quote
If you have to marry a certain person, because you owe them a debt from a previous life, astrology can only point out to you in what year such a union will prove most successful.
Unquote

Imagine having no chemistry with such a partner and getting into matrimony for karmic debts, then it would be such a dull game is it not? In India youngsters resent arranged horoscope matched marriages becuase they want to enjoy chemistry and not to pay karmic debts.  

You wrote:
QUOTE
Since I don't believe in coincidence, I do believe the planets are actually IN CONCERT with your Karma, that is why you were born in a particular place, on a particular day and at a particular time.  I do believe Creator uses these tools in order to ensure that you have the choice to pay back what you owe to the Universe.  Having said that, sometimes it is not Karma which is the issue here, but what you have asked for before birth.  Lessons you wanted or needed to learn, or perhaps a mission you yourself have decided upon before you came to this dimension.  In this case the planets would only be "pointers" and "indicators" to remind you of your prehuman descision and guide you in this dimension in order to carry it out.
Unquote

Brilliant i agree.


I wrote:

I have heard there are adepts in the Himalays who know the exact time of their death based on planetary position. Just prior to this time they take off on an astral journey and return to their bodies after that time has elapsed. They are able to stay out of their bodies for brief periods of time. In essence they are actually playing with whatever was originally dished out to them karmically.

Here is your take on this:

Quote
If they were able to "fool" death by taking an astral journey, where did they go to?  Perhaps it was to negotiate some more time on earth?  Also, if they could do this every time, why do they eventually die anyway?  Have they ever mentioned where they go to on these journeys?  And since it is only the BODY that dies anyway, is this relevant at all?  Is death a body without a soul?  Or is it the destruction of the body only? (in which case they fooled no one, since the soul is indestructable in any case....)  And why would they want to come back to their bodies if leaving your body behind is actually "elevating to a higher plane of existence"?
Unquote.

i hear sometimes they enter other bodies like those of a tree, a dead dog or whatever and stay put until the unfavorable planetary influence tides over or if they are able to sustain the astral journey without a body they do it. These adepts are perhaps mastering something like nirvana or aspiring for Moksha using this body itself instead of reincarnating again in a new body, or they are just interested in the occult or tantra or whatever they have just mastered and are in no mood to give up their body in the middle of this journey. Never know. I would suggest you read Robert Svobodhas books. I think i read this here or may be some place else.

Quote
If one could choose between this world and a Spirit World where one has so much more freedom, why would one ever want to come back to this world of limitations?  Could it be that they actually "initiated death" by this astral travel but WAS SENT BACK, because it was NOT their time yet?  As far as I know these people all do what they do, and live where they live BECAUSE they are trying to reach Nirvana.  Coming back to your body would therefore be a "down grading" as far as I am concerned...  A sort of..."You haven't reached this state yet, so go back and do it all over again...and come back in your astral body next time when you are REALLY prepared...."
Unqoute

Not all mystics are interested in the spirit world. They are perhaps terribly interested in the paranormal they have already experienced here and are in the process of mastering it. Besides in Hindu Mythology there is mention of Dev Lokas (other worlds) where beings envy us because we have the physical form.  Not many things are achievable without form is what they argue.

Quote
Just my ramblings.....
Unquote

Loved ur ramblings Thanks a ton.


love and rainbows

Raka

Dear Mysticdoubts,

Loved to read your responses.... Hmmmm....made sense in its own weird and wonderful way....

You wrote:

Brillant logic, but just pause for a minute. In India astrological remedies to wipe karmic slate clean could be in the form of rituals and donations to please planets to negate harmful effects.

Me...mincing water:

Well....perhaps these donations and rituals are required by those who initate them or insist they be done, in order that THEY may build up some Karma (grins impishly), and by humoring them and ACTUALLY DOING these rituals, you have really paid back Karma.  Sort of "you are guilty for believing that rituals and donations will wipe your slate clean, but since you are ignorant....you will be forgiven as you did it out of gullability, and the ones that REQUIRED that from you now sit with YOUR Karma, for having demanded these rituals and donations from you...LMAO!!!

You wrote:

In doing a ritual we have not paid back, its a state of not being affected karmically because the planet has now withdrawn its malefic influence on us. We may have to repay in the next birth where god will make sure we visit no astrologer and seek no rituals.

Me...mumbling incoherently:

The law of Karma CANNOT be broken....If you were led to believe that these rituals will cleanse you, the law of Faith will come into action together with the law of Forgiveness and you probably will be absolved of your debt.... However, the one that lead you to take this path and convinced you to do this ritual to "escape" your Karma, should now be burdened with it as a result.

You wrote:

May be we could be born in Siberia where it is too cold for astrology to be of any interest.  . Now we will be dragging this other person we have to pay back also to Siberia?  

LMAO!!!!!

I guess so, and you would probably incur a manure load of New Karma in the process for doing that...that's what makes life so spicy!

love and rainbows

Raka